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THE RISKS OF USING DEBIT MACHINES

In the matter of about one year:

1. I had two Wells Fargo ATM in USA not deliver my $700 each transaction but my account got debited anyhow. This is when the machine fails. And I was a Wells Fargo account holder.

2. I had the Davivienda ATM at Lays in Envigado fail to deliver 400,000 twice. My account got debited anyhow

3. Last week I had the Citibank Elpoblado ATM fail to deliver 700,000. In checking my account today it got debited and in addition the account is showing an additional withdrawl of 700,000 that is not backed by the ATM reciepts I have.

All of these transaction failures and debit account postings occur about the same way. The money gets to the point of being counted and after a little time or suddenly there is a message that I cannot complete this transaction at this time. At Lays in Envigado the screen also goes dark momentarilly.

Wells Fargo did refund the $1400 but they told me they could not reveal how often this occurs as it is an industry secret. I was miffed because it occured twice in about two months ( on two different machine )

These are always for the maximum amounts. I am just lucky this has not occured at Citibank Sandiego on a 2,000,000 transaction.

Initially when calling the the problem number from the Davivenda ATM at Lays they told me that it was my debit card accounts problem. After checking with the debit card company it was clear that it was the banks problem. But after going directly to the Davivienda bank branch in Evigado, they did research it. The bank refunded me one $400,000 although because I had not gotten an ATM reciept printout it got to hard to get the second 400,000 out of them.

Today I go to Citibank where the security personal had witnessed the malfunction and along with my debit card account printout showing the transaction that I did not recieve money from the ATM and an additionaI transaction that was posted for 800,000 that I had not even transacted. I had ATM reciepts showing the completed transactions. But in the case of a failure you do not get a reciept. My account records also showed the additional transaction that was posted to my debit card account but did not occur.

The bank personel took down the information and basically said it was the debit card companies problem. Well it may be the case on the additional transaction that was posted to my account ( maybe not! it may be Citibanks ) But the transaction that posted to my account that was caused by ATM failure to dispense money was Citibanks responsability.

So tomorrow I will call the debit card company and I will update you. If they deny any responsability I will go back to Citibank and insist they investigate ( the ATM records the failed transactions as well as the number of transactions to the card ) so there is a method that should be used to resolve this, but Citibank wanted to act like it was not their problem.

I just wanted to warn you to always get an ATM printout and to be aware of this frequent problem with ATM transaction failure and that the frequency of failure remains a trade secret of the banking industry world wide.

David

By davidslc46 on Feb 17, 2009, 17:47 in Friendly Talkzone.

durito2 says on Feb 17, 2009, 17:50:

Consider yourself lucky you have Wells Fargo in the USA. They should give you your money back, no problems.

You won't get a damn thing from Citibank in Colombia

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adrimm (Moderator) says on Feb 17, 2009, 19:31:

Citbank is a multinational, if there is no luck with the local branch, maybe take the discussion a step higher.

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Man Tequila says on Feb 17, 2009, 20:13:

This happened to me in Cartagena at Banco AV Villas. It has never happened to me elsewhere in thousands of transactions.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Buongone says on Feb 17, 2009, 21:16:

Happened to me in Boquete, Panama , about 15 months ago. I went inside the bank and said the machine just shut down. Said like above. Cannot complete the transaction. Reported it to my bank. Got the money put back in my account. Took about 3 days tho. Had to do some sort of investigation.

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miamimike says on Feb 17, 2009, 21:28:

I had the opposite experience around 1988 when Barnett(now part of BOA) just came out with ATMs in Florida and twice, in a one month period (from the main Barnett branch in downtown St Petersburg), the ATMs gave me the daily max of $500 yet never deducted it from my account. Never had that good luck again since that month. I never reported it and never heard from the bank either. Pennies from Heaven,,,

"You can take the Banana Out of the Republic but you Cannot take the Republic Out Of The Banana"

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miamimike says on Feb 17, 2009, 21:43:

Jonas, around 1976 I had a Teller credit my account accidentally in a small home town bank by $10,000 too much. We still used Bankbooks then. I told her about her error still she refused to beleive me. Then I went to the Manager at this small bank and he checked it out and came back, along with the Teller, and thanked me for bringing it to his attention. The Teller was redfaced but she still had a Job. Had I cleaned out the account, as many would have done, doubtful she would have had gainful employment the following day. She herself never thanked me so I learned my lesson that day.

"You can take the Banana Out of the Republic but you Cannot take the Republic Out Of The Banana"

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elchantajista says on Feb 18, 2009, 00:20:

thanks for the info and reminder will keep my reciepts from now on.

anda de parranda al Juanchito "Vicente"

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expatriate says on Feb 18, 2009, 04:15:

I have used ATMs in Cali thousands of times without problem for nearly 5 years, until 5 days ago.

From a Davivienda ATM I withdrew 400k, 400k, and then 200k from the same machine, one after the other. The last transaction failed, but my U.S. account was debited anyway.

So, I printed out my statement that I got online, and wrote a letter explaining what happened, and took it in to the bank manager. I was handed the 200K in cash the next business day.

Since this is the first time I have heard this problem mentioned on PBH, this might be happening on purpose. Certainly some of the customers do not complain, and the bank keeps the dough.

You better take care of me Lord, if you don't you're gonna have me on your hands.

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miamimike says on Feb 18, 2009, 04:36:

Hard to beleive all these mishaps could be accidents. When they reconcile the Books at the end of the day, it would show an un-accounted surplusand they would then have to reconcile the books and notify the Account holders. I think these incidents are more then happenstance and infact are intentional for that many to be happening.

"You can take the Banana Out of the Republic but you Cannot take the Republic Out Of The Banana"

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davidslc46 says on Feb 18, 2009, 05:01:

Expariate,

Davivienda was willing to refund the one and the documentation was weak on the second transaction so I did not push it. However I had to go to the bank directly after the toll free problem number from the ATM told me to get it from my debit card company. That debit card company said it was the banks problem. At the Davivenda bank branch level it was clear that this hppened many time before as they did not contest their ATMs failure and had a process in place for refunding.

Miamimike,

You are 100% correct. Wells Fargo and Dvaienda both first told me that the ATM machine transactions are analyzed every evening for discrepanies and the accounts credited back where failures occur. In both cases no crediting back occured and I had to go directly to the banks to get action.

Update,

Called my credit card company and they said send the account printout to them. It appears that they are willing to credit back the transactions. I will let you know.

David

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larryrn says on Feb 18, 2009, 05:52:

I am curious if anyone has initiated a chargeback on a US credit card against a business in Colombia?? In the US I have done this and always get my money back. When I bought the AC and it didn't work - I took it back to Exito expecting to have problems - however, there were no problems at all - they were very nice and just needed to do a bunch of paperwork. In the US a couple of times I had problems and I would call the card bank and I would get an immediate credit.. Larry

“Your source for Online Nursing CEUs” -- www.rn.org www.rnceu.us www.enfermeria.us www.enfermeriasite.com

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sloopskipper says on Feb 18, 2009, 07:07:

It is difficult to imagine all those ATM problems.

The dispense operation is closely monitored by numerous sensors, and a failure should cause the machine to immediately go “out-of-service”. The transaction is not sent to the server until after the cash is successfully dispensed and a requested receipt is printed and presented. If there is a dispenser failure the transaction should be sent over the network as voided, along with an alarm message.

I only know what Bancolombia uses and those machines, after a single dispenser failure, should remain unusable until a technician arrives. They can not be placed back in service from central.

It is easy to identify, by the card number, which customer did not receive the cash, and they should not have been charged for the voided transaction.

This was even true for this vintage, circa 1979, machine:

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Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Feb 18, 2009, 08:14:

Very strange.

Although I only used the Bancolombia machines a few times, I've used others in many countries for almost 40 years. I was the ATM hardware specialist in my area for several years, and I have neither experienced, nor heard of, those problems.

If they are experiencing dispense failures, the machines are not probably not being properly maintained (I see that with bad touch-screen calibration here in Panamá). But, if you are charged for a voided transaction that must be some really shitty software Davivienda uses and/or is improperly installed (in the ATM, or their server or mainframe). That should not be a human decision to charge, or not.

The "communications problem" should produce the same result as the dispense failure, a voided transaction.

I guess you never noticed what brand those machines were?

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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durito2 says on Feb 18, 2009, 08:23:

It happened to me in Bolivia a few years ago. The bank in the US credited me back.

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Alma del Norte says on Feb 18, 2009, 11:40:

Weird...I was pondering 4 x 400,000 transactions on my UK account when this thread popped up. I often make 2 transactions a day, but my daily limit would preclude 4. They were all made on the 13th February in Andino...from Davivienda. In any event, I would not carry round 1,600,000 all day without good cause.

La vida es una rutina

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pedro says on Feb 18, 2009, 12:06:

Always follow it up with your home bank. It's not necessary to deal with the local bank where the error occurred.

I sometimes got a mistaken debit and then an automatic credit a day or so later.

I also had to report an incident a couple of times where I got charged the transaction but got no cash (twice in Brazil, once in Colombia). It was always credited back to me.

Don't go to any kind of effort to get documentation from the local bank. You're just pissing in the wind and it's not even necessary to get your credit.

"this may seem a strange post but it is not...when in colombia men need to be aware that colombia women may try to be seductive and entice a travelling gringo to have sex with them..to be forewarned is to be forearmed..." -- pow wow

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sloopskipper says on Feb 18, 2009, 14:40:

I am tempted to believe that that there is maybe pirated/kludged/poorly installed software at central and/or on the ATMs themselves. The inherent design of the ATM (at least "ours") would preclude this. The ATM should definitely flag a dispense failure and send alarms and void the transaction (and shut the machine down), but if the intercept software ignores that (or some idiot employee can make a decision), you’ll probably be charged.

But, remembering my recent experience trying to by a small TV online from El Exito, I believe anything is possible in Colombia. They claimed that my American Express Card charge, and later a Citi MC were denied, although both AmEx and Citi claimed that the charges were never presented to them. I finally just sent the money to the family in Cali. I used both cards with no problems at ATMs & retail in Colombia.

I am convinced, with so many things, that Latin Americans tend to disregard so many things work well in the rest of the World, but believe that they are smart enough (or arrogant enough) to reinvent the wheel. That is often untrue.

BTW Jonas,

Bancolombia in Cartagena uses "our" ATMs in Cartagena (but they're only as good as the maintenance and software).

Perhaps you will remember the logo at the bottom:

Photobucket

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Feb 18, 2009, 14:51:

Hey man Jonas, sorry to hear that. I hope that we will soon hear that you are on the mend.

Otherwise, it's not all so important.

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Feb 19, 2009, 10:39:

Of course, jaja.

But seriously, Diebold makes a good machine and with proper software/installation that situation is virtually impossible.

I would think if an ATM continues to operate after a dispense failure, and if you are being charged for voided transaction, there is a big-time problem in the ATM software. It may well not be Diebold SW.

The only plausible explanation would be if the charge is sent, and then another transmission is required to void it, and the second one fails. But that still does not explain why the unit does not shut down after a catastrophic failure.

There is semi technical article at wiki that will probably tell you all you want to know, and MORE, about ATMs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_teller_machine

But it does not mention all the other functions self service terminals can perform, including printing tickets and boarding passes in the 80s, before e-tickets:

Photobucket

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Feb 19, 2009, 15:14:

I’m not so current and was never really that aware of competitive products and I don't recognize either one, but both sport no logo? Who knows what’s in the machine, or behind it. ATM/credit card authorizations are somewhat complex (especially internationally) and it seems that some these bank’s applications are not really up to the task (which is not so surpising).

I’m a bit curious about that “nose” hanging on the front of the card reader slot, although is seems doubtful that skimming or cloning might be part of these problems. From what I have seen, skimmers are usually less conspicuous.

Diebold’s machines can also be identified as Interbold as they were partnered with IBM for a few years, and some old pre 1996 NCRs might display an AT&T logo (or even the old red NCR) because of a merger of a few years.

I think that maybe Fujitsu has been out of the game for a few years.

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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davidslc46 says on Feb 19, 2009, 16:14:

I think there may be another posssible explanation to the posting on the card account of a voided failure transaction. My cards that had failure were fist HSBC Panama and second FBME Cyprus. These are international banks who may not have the software ability or want to adjust posting if in fact the evening audit done by the ATM bank shows a failure and issues a correction to the international bank. Now the banks with failures say an audit is done nightly and the corrections are sent to the card issuers. But maybe they don`t do it or they don`t communicate to the card issuer. It does not seem in their best interest to care all that much because they got the money the card holder lost.

David

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sloopskipper says on Feb 19, 2009, 17:16:

Jonas,€ 4 transaction charge? The whores!

David, el mismo. The local bank should be doing, at least, a daily settlement and would then know which transactions failed.

If they don't credit failed transactions it's probably like much in Latin America, being that they have no respect for customers, and/or simply don't give a shit, or have no interest in doing a good job, or anything else.

The ATM holding bank should be recieving all the messages from the ATM, and they must inform voided tranactions to the car holder's bank. There is no software issue. If they send a transaction, they must also send the void.

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Feb 20, 2009, 08:51:

I take back the statement of no SW issue, that is most likely the case, at the foreign end..

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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