FARC says NGOs will be considered military targets if they try and reach the southern regions of Vaupes, Guania, Caqueta and Guaviare.

viajero123 says on Aug 14, 2008, 02:25:

Farc has never respected Humanitary Missions nor Human Rights and people's rights to assistance, why blame Uribe now? This will also contradict Alfonso Cano when he said that Farc were betrayed by the commanders in charge. In reality they were really tricked by the army. I agree the operation not perfect though.

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Dolfi says on Aug 14, 2008, 05:03:

Wow, and I thoght those NGOs where all disguised supporters of the FARC?

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tasco66 says on Aug 14, 2008, 05:33:

so what's new?

Newsweek on Uribe: "he's delivered the trifecta of peace, security, and prosperity"

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billyb says on Aug 14, 2008, 06:24:

And this is news? This is just the FARC trying to get get some benefit from their worst episode and spin a little and the people they were counting on buying their BS are buying into it, shocker. Maybe the ONGs should start wearing army uniforms and then maybe they'll get some respect from the FARC for ONCE. Next CK will be posting stories about the FARC shooting unarmed and wounded army soldiers in Red Cross ambulances, oh wait, they already did that, and well before this happened....... (comment deleted, no attacking please)

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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beisbollover says on Aug 14, 2008, 06:31:

I stand and applaud billyb. Bravo.

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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Cerealkiller says on Aug 14, 2008, 06:43:

That was Tasco posting that article about the Army Soldiers not me.
I do believe this is pretty bad news and I do not care if its a manipulation of FARC or not because ultimately, the people affected by this will be civilians who can't leave and/ or ask for support or protection. Who is going to come up and tell us how many people are being recruited (forced or otherwise) by FARC? The government? I don't think so. And then when FARC re-organize and re-arm what? Its not like it hasn't happened before, people have completely forgotten about the Turbay era, when everyone swore up and down that guerrillas were over... FARC still has 10.000 people, arms and money and 700 hostages (according to Corporacion Viva la Ciudadania), they're just waiting and planning. If you trust the Uribe's government to reach to the people and tell us what is REALLY going on down there, then good for you. I don't trust it and I believe civil society's presence down there is essential.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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billyb says on Aug 14, 2008, 06:59:

"That was Tasco posting that article about the Army Soldiers not me."

I know CK, I was trying to make the point that the FARC already has no respect for any ONG, never has, never will, so it is all just propaganda and the people they expected to buy it are buying it, all according to plan. Name me one case where the FARC went against its strategic, or even tactical interests and carried out a humanitarian act? You won't be able to name one. And for those who are eager to point out their releasing Clara and the others as an example, wrong, they did that for strategic purposes, to bolster that dog Cordoba and their paymaster Chavez.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Cerealkiller says on Aug 14, 2008, 07:44:

But Billy this is not about the NGOs working hand in hand with FARC for humanitarian purposes. Clearly, the FARC have shown no concept of "humanitarian".

I don't think its possible to measure the work on these NGOs in terms of one or more episodes of "humanitarian behavior". At the end of the day, FARC will kill and recruit with or without NGOs...What worries me is the fact that any measure taken by the government will be based on their own "intelligence" and no one will have a different version of the situation and the events, except for the FARC (which is pretty much the same as nothing, as their credibility is zero).

Without the field work done by NGOs (particularly in the field of research) such as CODHES, MINGA, CIJP etc etc there will be virtually no information of what goes on down there. These groups are the ones exposing the horrors of the conflict with a more or less neutral agenda, at least when compared to the government (they need votes) and the guerrillas (who are liars and criminals). ACNUR's reports rely heavily on these sources and so do foreign governments.

I think its a shame that many Colombians have come to despise NGOs to the point that anything that happens to them is deemed as irrelevant to Colombian politics, when in reality, civil society is key in any democracy and their degree of importance as key stakeholders is not decreasing. This will prove a major drawback in terms of funding and credibility of both sides...but its the people of Colombia who will see their society growing more atomized and eroded. It is a real shame.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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beisbollover says on Aug 14, 2008, 08:15:

Bottom line is that in a conventional war the Red Cross and other NGO's are needed by both sides.

However in the case of the FARC & Colombia conflict it is not conventional due to the plans of the FARC to use terrorism as its offense. Terrorism cannot co-exist with NGO's. In fact, the better the terrorist the worse it will be for NGO's.

The beauty of the FARC's propaganda is to create belief outside of Colombia that they are engaged in a war, and are not terrorists. Hence the earlier statement by billyb:

"What was the name Stalin had for people like Dolfi and Mugrecito? Hmmm, oh yeah, "useful Idiots"."

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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ietk says on Aug 14, 2008, 08:37:

For all I care they should kick those ONGs out of there anyway, I wonder how many of them are really doing what they are supposed to do? they over 50? how do we know they are not just a mock ONG to help the guerrillas?

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romy says on Aug 14, 2008, 09:13:

The important thing to consider is that regardless of how FARC has treated NGOs up to recently... NGOs are now scared to go in because they don't feel their emblem is enough protection anymore. So whatever they were doing (I would suggest helping uninvolved civilians out) they are not going to do it anymore because they are scared of FARC.
So will Uribe fill in? I don't think he has the resources or the will...

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billyb says on Aug 14, 2008, 09:19:

"they don't feel their emblem is enough protection anymore"

It never was. They are safe as long the FARC feels their being there serves their purposes, it's just as it always was.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Aug 14, 2008, 09:31:

would you say the same thing with related events around the world? I'm sure you've heard of IRC pulling out of Afghanistan...
I find it interesting how you make so many assumptions of FARC, where do you get your insight on them? What purpose did they used to serve that now they can't? is what I just don't get...

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 14, 2008, 11:56:

I have to call nonsense on this.

The FARC is right to be suspicious of any NGOs that want to fly in on helicopters and take any of their remaining hostages or leaders on a "humanitarian mission" sightseeing flight. Other than that, they're full of shit. They know damn well that the trick won't work again and are only doing this to score propaganda points at the detriment of the people in Southern Colombia.

On the other hand, I think this nonsense will force the Colombian military to really step things up and show that they can take those areas away from FARC control and extend their authority over 100% of Colombia for the first time in ages.

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beisbollover says on Aug 14, 2008, 11:57:

From your lips to Gods ears (any god)......

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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tasco66 says on Aug 14, 2008, 12:41:

"The FARC is right to be suspicious of any NGOs that want to fly in on helicopters and take any of their remaining hostages or leaders on a "humanitarian mission" sightseeing flight. Other than that, they're full of shit. They know damn well that the trick won't work again and are only doing this to score propaganda points at the detriment of the people in Southern Colombia."

Yep, and the Farc can be sure some PBH lefties will post their propaganda here…

Newsweek on Uribe: "he's delivered the trifecta of peace, security, and prosperity"

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Lcacique says on Aug 14, 2008, 13:18:

Wait a minute...why is it that suddenly people who have always claimed that the FARC and the NGOs were in bed together are now saying that the FARC has never respected the NGOs...damn you guys are confusing. Now, you guys told me that all NGOs were working in concert with the FARC to turn the country into a communist dictatorship; however, today it seems like you are implying that the FARC have never trusted the NGOs...

Mr. Hollywood: Can you identify the age when Colombia had 100% control over the entire country, please. Just curious...not saying you are wrong.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 14, 2008, 13:20:

I'm not sure Colombia ever had state control over 100% of the national territory, lcacique, hence my comment. No country every really does, but Colombia has been a rather exceptional case of not having much control over large areas.

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billyb says on Aug 14, 2008, 13:33:

"Wait a minute...why is it that suddenly people who have always claimed that the FARC and the NGOs were in bed together are now saying that the FARC has never respected the NGOs"

The FARC working with some ONGs and using some of them as "useful idiots" doesn't mean they respect any of them. Nothing contradictory there. FARC will tolerate ONGs as long as they serve their purpose, be it propagande, intelligence gathering or whatever.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Aug 14, 2008, 13:40:

billyb- the point is that they let them do the humanitarian work that the people required... now they won't

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Lcacique says on Aug 14, 2008, 13:43:

Mr. Hollywood: "for the first time in ages" seemed to imply that back in whatever age the government had control. Sorry for misinterpreting your comment. And Colombia has been stellar at not controlling large areas of its land as you point out.

I seem to recall, billyb, people insinuating that the FARC and NGOs were synonymous.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 14, 2008, 13:51:

"In ages" = something between 40 years and forever.

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romy says on Aug 14, 2008, 13:56:

Hollywood- are you a defendant of If there can't be rule of law, then ruled by law will do?

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dwmte7 says on Aug 14, 2008, 14:29:

let me see now....this thread.......Pirate, help me out

patriarch

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billyb says on Aug 14, 2008, 14:42:

"I seem to recall, billyb, people insinuating that the FARC and NGOs were synonymous."

Did anybody actually use that wording? Or maybe just insinuated that a lot ONGs have sympathies for the FARC and some of their workers actively help them out. Are you denying that is the case?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Aug 14, 2008, 14:47:

Start naming them off Billy, I'm sure it's not any of the reputable NGOs that did good work for Colombians, if you even have any...

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billyb says on Aug 14, 2008, 14:48:

"billyb- the point is that they let them do the humanitarian work that the people required... now they won't"


Romy, the point is that they let them do their work when it suited the FARC's purposes and they stopped them when it didn't, and that will remain the case, so don't get yourself in too much of a tizzy over their communique, it's just propaganda. And judging from some of your reactions, it seems like effective propaganda at that.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Aug 14, 2008, 14:50:

why did it suit FARC? and now it doesn't?

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billyb says on Aug 14, 2008, 14:58:

Who says now it doesn't? It varies on individual situations. Like I said, nothing to get into a tizzy about, it is just a propaganda communique to get their sympathisers and UNWITTING accomplices all exited and give them some rhetorical ammunition to use against the Colombian governament.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Aug 14, 2008, 15:20:

ok, I guess you 'know' best... and I should just take your word on that. Where do I sign up for your daily newsletter in which you teach your followers how to live the 'correct' life? Do you have a blog? I mean how do you get your ideas out? not just through here I hope, such wisdom hopefully reaches all corners of the world...

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billyb says on Aug 14, 2008, 15:44:

Romy, it just common sense and experience and, hopefully, someday you might also have experience.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Aug 14, 2008, 16:02:

"common sense" doesn't exist...

"experience"- are you using the age card? tell me what experiences made you so wise? I'm quite the experienced person considering others with my age. But I guess the way you talk with 'authority' on FARC you've hanged out with them in the jungle... I haven't had that experience and never will, unless if they kidnap me I guess...

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tasco66 says on Aug 14, 2008, 17:33:

What about the soldiers disguised as chavista journalists. Are they going to shoot all chavista journalists from now on? jajajaja

Newsweek on Uribe: "he's delivered the trifecta of peace, security, and prosperity"

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 14, 2008, 20:24:

Romy, I have no idea what your question is, if it's one? The thing about rule of law.

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tasco66 says on Aug 15, 2008, 06:00:

“Romy, I have no idea what your question is, if it's one?�

Jajaja. The guy has been bit confused lately. I told him to quit whatever he is taking…

Newsweek on Uribe: "he's delivered the trifecta of peace, security, and prosperity"

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romy says on Aug 15, 2008, 06:31:

you've never heard of Rule of Law vs. Ruled by Law?
For instance Colombia is more than likely to be considered the later. Another example is BOPE in Brazil.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 15, 2008, 11:06:

I know the difference between Rule of Law vs. Ruled by Law, but you're high if you think Colombia is the later.

A couple tareas for you:

#1. Read the Colombian constitution.
#2. Go spend some time in the Colombian senate and congress. Those debates aren't fake.
#3. Compare the diversity of the Colombian political spectrum (meaning parties holding office, both national and local) against other countries, including the United States, England and Mexico.

Then come back and we can discuss rule of law vs. Ruled by law.

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Lcacique says on Aug 15, 2008, 12:45:

Colombia and law...jajaja...Sorry to all of my Colombian friends, but this is an area where I think Colombia needs desperate improvement.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 15, 2008, 13:34:

From my POV, lcacique, Colombia's problem is with its justice system, not with a failure to have plenty of good laws. Obviously, it doesn't do a lot of good to have strong laws against crime only to have a justice system that does a poor job of investigating and prosecuting those crimes.

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Lcacique says on Aug 15, 2008, 13:54:

Agreed...

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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romy says on Aug 15, 2008, 14:54:

So.... there is no rule of law... Instead the law rules you.... hmmm

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tasco66 says on Aug 15, 2008, 15:00:

Funny how you guys say there is no rule of law and next thing you are posting an investigation from the fiscalia on some senador for parapolitica…

Newsweek on Uribe: "he's delivered the trifecta of peace, security, and prosperity"

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Lcacique says on Aug 16, 2008, 00:01:

My point is this, Colombia hasn't had the greatest record in terms of convicting criminals. I don't know many people that would deny that fact.

There is a great documentary that touches on an aspect of this issue...it's called "An Honest Citizen." It is about Maria Cristina Chirolla who is head of the Attorney General's anti-money laundering office in Bogotá.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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billyb says on Aug 16, 2008, 01:40:

Lc , you are correct, colombia has a sorry record in arresting criminals, indicting criminals, convicting criminals, sentesing criminals and incarcerating criminals, but things are getting better. You guys are holding Colombia to US, EU or Canadian standards, but neglet to notice that even though you don't have one tenth of Colombia's problems, you still fuck up with your legal systems. Just to mention a few fokups, you have the Green River Killer in WA USA, 48 admited murders, was a suspect 10 victims into the killings, but dumbfuck detectives didn't put together the signs although they had the FBI with their profile unit and a 100 man task force, and yet a guy with borderline itellingence kept on killing for 17 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Ridgway

The Florence Monster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monster_of_Florence ,

the Canadian sex killer couple

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/released-canadian-killer-talks/2005/0...

and let's not forget the Wests in England

http://www.karisable.com/skazrose.htm

all are cases were enlightened "first world justice" fucked up. So please save your misguided belief that you have to endure "the white man's burden".

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Lcacique says on Aug 16, 2008, 12:53:

billyb, save your moronic attempt to tarnish the record of the US justice system for someone else. I never insinuated that the US was flawless. You failed to mention the multitudes that are wrongly convicted in the US and the fact that our system often gives stiffer penalties to minorities. This does not change the fact that Colombia has a poorly functioning justice system. It is not about holding Colombia to US/Canadian/or European standards...It is about holding them to a standard.

Jeez...I never realized that Colombia has had to deal with problems that would make governing the country difficult. Thanks for pointing that out.

And why in the F$$K would direct this comment at me: "So please save your misguided belief that you have to endure 'the white man's burden'?

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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